Life Lessons From Mount Kilimanjaro

Wayne Barringer, a motivational speaker, and coach. Shares his journey of climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in 2018. He has many life lessons to share from his climb, and you will be inspired to use the lessons in your work life. Wayne reminds us that having people around you to help you is essential for success in business and life. 

Talking Points:

{02:05} The day Wayne decided he was going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro

{04:50} Preparing for the climb.

{06:25} How climbing can make you a better leader.

{08:23} The first day of the climb

{11:00} The moment you realize it is harder than you thought.

{14:35} Having support in your life journey.

{17:28} continuing the climb after a bad day.

{21:04} Reaching the summit.

{26:00} How Wayne is using his experience to help other people.

Resources and Links:

• Website: https://www.jaro.win/
• Social: https://www.linkedin.com/in/waynebarringer 

Connect with Tom Finn

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Hey there. Thanks for tuning in to the Talent Empowerment Podcast. We’re here to help you discover your true purpose. Step up your game at work and live the happiest life possible. We unpack the tools and tactics of successful humans to guide you toward your own purpose, find happiness and empower your career. I am your purpose-driven little host, the real Tom Finn and on the show today we have Wayne Barringer.

Wayne, Welcome to the show.

Great to be here, Tom. Thank you for having me.

Well, my friends, if you do not know Wayne, let me take a second to introduce you to this fine gentleman. In 2018, he climbed a small little mountain called Mount Kilimanjaro. And that transformative experience changed his focus on leadership and how to develop people at work on their climb to fulfillment and excellence. The lessons he learned from Kilimanjaro helped Wayne turn a very dark and detached team at Boeing from 52% employee satisfaction to 90% in three years. It's a big lift. While at Boeing he led their marketing creative studio with about 100 employees or so. 

And prior to that, Wayne worked at multiple AD and PR agencies, including Porter Novelli, Weber, Shanwick, and Blackwing Creative Green Robino. So, he's got a lot of deep knowledge of marketing and PR. So since then, he's been training teams from billion-dollar companies such as Hasbro. Cognizant UKG and universities as well, such as UW for those of you that don't know, that's the University of Washington. UW Medicine, Jackson, State University, some nonprofits, some small companies, and a few more. 

His life's mission is to guide those who want to achieve more peace and fulfillment, and impact at work and in corporate environments. And really, there's a basic understanding here that work environments have never been more dynamic, detached, and sometimes, oftentimes dysfunctional. So, Wayne, let's start right with the big headline here. Tell me about the day when you decided you needed to climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

So that day was quite a quiet day. I had a coach when I was at Boeing, who believed in the notion of congealing body and mind action with the aspirations that you have as a leader. And so, he took about eight of his clients on a rock-climbing trip to Joshua Tree National Park in California. I've never been rock climbing.

I decided to go because he paid for everything, and we just had to get down there. The night before the rock-climbing trip, we had dinner together. The wine was flowing and right before we adjourned, he said. Hey, I have a slideshow for you guys. It would just take 10 minutes and he proceeded to show slides of unbelievably spectacular photos of the last group that he coerced into going with him to Mount Kilo. 

And he asked us if you'd like to go on taking another group just like you in September. And of course, we all added a little bit of wine and had a great time. And we were excited about the rock climbing, and we all said yes, where do we sign up the next day? We all chatted separately, and we were like, oh, my gosh, what did we just sign up for? 

You might hear my voice of breathiness or raspiness. I've had some airway challenges, my whole life. That's why you get kind of the Batman tone here. 

And so, as I started sobering up and thinking about that and a 19,000-foot mountain in Africa, it seemed like something that I should not have signed up for. I was crazy too. And Oh my gosh, I might die up there, you know? So that was the first day. And the second day and several days after, and as you've already mentioned, I did it anyway and it was transformative.

I love the way that story starts, so there I was, coerced by drinking copious amounts of wine into climbing Mount Kilimanjaro.

And for those of you that don't know, Mount Kilimanjaro is in Tanzania, which if you don't have your maps app up, is on the if I'm correct. The eastern side of Africa. So, the elevation of this thing is 19,341 feet. So just to kind of do some rough math, it's about four miles straight up and Kilimanjaro is a dormant volcano. 

So 4 miles up a dormant Volcano, Extreme Altitude, and Mountain Trek that you've got to, I assume, prepare well, and train all of those things before you go. You can't just hop on an airplane and climb this thing, I wouldn't think. How does that work?

I certainly couldn't just climb on an airplane and climb this thing, so the training for... So we had a group of eight. When I came back and sobered up and just sort of said, OK, I'm going to do this anyways, and I'd love to do it with some people whom I care about and our friends. 

So, I sent an e-mail to 32 of my closest friends. One person wrote back and said everybody else is like, no way in hell. And then my oldest son, I kind of coerced him into going and he opted to go and then a friend of a friend's husband decided to go too. We trained together most of that summer. 

We ran for endurance. We did a little bit of weightlifting, particularly squats and leg work. And then I live in Seattle, so we climbed many of them, I would say moderate mountains around the area, and we learned how to eat. We read everything we could about nutrition and timing, and then we also learned about altitude sickness and oxygen at those altitudes and things like that. So, all of the knowledge and all the physical activity is kind of how we prepared for this. In addition to psyching each other up.

Yeah, right. Of course, you need a few pats on the back along the way I assume.

That's right.

So, one of the things you said in your opening. Was this really about the mind and body connection? And your boss said, look, Let's go down to Joshua Tree. Let's hang this is all about the mind and body connection. So, can you expand on that a little bit; where do hiking, mountains, and training come into? You know, our consciousness makes us better leaders?

I love that question. The coach that I had at the time was the first person I think that I'd really ever heard talk about that notion. And since then, of course, it's like when you buy a red car, everybody's got a red car. 

I see it everywhere when you talk to entrepreneurs, which we both are. You can read entrepreneur books. You can study entrepreneurship, and you can watch YouTube videos, but until you step in the seat where you don't have a seat belt... Business-wise… you just have to start going and see what happens. You can't predict how that feels or what's going to happen so that might be an example that people can resonate with. 

On Kilimanjaro, the physical experience of not only the preparation, not the decision, the preparation, the training, and also the doing of it. Creates a feeling that you just can't replicate by reading about people going to Kilimanjaro or by reading about groups that make transformation and get better at work. So that's how I would say it in a shortened version.

Yeah, that's super helpful. These types of experiences really change and open the mind. It's like I always tell people, young people go travel the world, especially if you're American. Get out of America and go see what else is out there because you're going to expand your horizons, learn different languages, learn different cultures, eat different food, and meet different people. And there's a whole world out there that looks and feels and acts differently than North America, and it's pretty cool when you go out and experience it. 

So public service announcement for all of your young people to get out of trouble. So, all right, Wayne. So here we are. We're training. We've got our group. We're on the airplane. We're headed over to Eastern Africa to climb 4 miles up a hill. So, tell me about the first day and sort of your feelings on the first day.

Yeah, I think when we finally got there. We knew we were well-trained. We had all the guidance, all the training, all the stuff that we did together and then we met four other guys there in addition to... I would say hundreds of other people were starting their climb that same morning. So, the feeling we had was, I would say feeling a little bit of anxiety, but mostly enthusiasm. And can we get going in confidence because we know we have trained in wonderment like what is this going to be like? I can't believe it. We're all doing this. 

I mean, many of us had traveled a little bit to the traditional, you know, sort of US travel countries, Mexico, Canada, Europe, but none of us had to do anything like this. So, it was all those feelings together and mostly just anticipation. What is this going on? To be like.

So, you got your backpack on, you guys have you, you're geared up, you're trained, you're ready to go. You're geeked. We're about to take those first few steps. Was that first day like?

Yes. The first day was beautiful. It was probably 65 degrees when we started. There were lots of sorts of logistical instructions that happened, which is great to get your mind ready. And the first day of the hike. If I might say not that hard, the reason it's not that hard is perhaps obvious once you start thinking about it. Lower altitude when you're lower, it's less steep. 

We're all full of adrenaline because we're doing this crazy thing or fully nourished or fully hydrated like we're in top shape. Been training for six months. The first day was fantastic. You go. I think you start out at. If I recall, you started at about 5 or 6000 feet in elevation. That's where you start. So you're not really going a full 19,000, you go about 13,000 or so total, but?

Wow, man, you guys cheated.

Yeah, you took off the 1st.

I imagine that's due to the topography. Probably not a choice you get to make.

Topography where the trailheads start, where the country of Tanzania governs, where the guides can take you, and where they can't access points. Yes, all of that.

So, you start out on day one thing. Are you feeling good? When was the first time you felt trepidation? Some oopsie. This is going to be harder than I thought.

Well, first I'll just answer that with the biggest moment because there were a number of moments, many of them around, they're sleeping on an air mattress in the middle of Africa on rocks and dirt, even that first night and the time zone, it was like 16 hours different or whatever. That's not fun. It gets cold at night if you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. That's not fun so. There, there were those little moments that we expected.

But the biggest moment for me personally. We had a track; I think it was the third day. 

So let me just back up quickly. The thing about why? Kilimanjaro is such an achievable mountain to climb, and that's parallel with some of the coaching that I do, and certainly, you do too. Probably most people think it's crazy. I can't do that kind of thing. It's very achievable. One of the reasons Is that the country of Tanzania mandates that you must have a Tanzanian guide to go with you on the track, so you can't. I'm alone. 

The second reason is that they have those guys. They know how to optimize their ability to make it, and one of the ways they do that is to make sure that you don't just go up. You know 19,000 feet in two days, you wouldn’t be able to acclimate your breathing and your oxygen circulation and that time. So, it's a lot of up, down, flat, up, down, flat. So that you stress your body and you come back down to your body, can recover, and then you go flat that day so you can further recover. 

So, I told you all that because, on the third day, we went past 15,000 feet, stopped for lunch, and looked at it. We looked at each other, my buddies, and said wow, we overtrained for this. Like we're at 15,000 feet on a mountain in Africa and we feel like Superman got done with lunch, started going down to the camp that night and I completely blacked out. And it's an emotional story because I didn't know. Where I was. 

And all of a sudden, one of those guides showed up in front of me. And took my pack and guided me back to camp and it was just an amazing experience because there was a moment of what am I doing and then the moment I knew there are always people around you to help you. And so that was an amazing moment that just continued with those guides on that mountain they were. Incredible people.

There are some parallels here to business and life in general that I think we are raised to Do things on our own and to carve the path and be independent and those types of behaviors. That look has merit. 

But there's also this other way of doing things where you seek help and you get guidance from others and you shorten the timeline it takes to learn by having people like guides in Tanzania, right, and guides in Tanzania can save your life at one level. 

Guides in Tanzania can help guide you through the right path or take your hand and make sure you're OK as you kind of move through your journey. There are some real parallels here to life and business, don’t you? Have you felt like there was a teacher along your way that really supported you outside of this journey? And we'll get back to that, but has there been somebody that really influenced you and held your hand along the way?

I've been so blessed to have so many people like that, other coaches, colleagues, people who, you know, “worked for me”, who challenged me and gave me the right feedback when I needed it. And supported me and, you know, propped me up and gave me kudos when I thought it was tougher than I could handle her more than it needed to be.

So, I mean, I could name probably 50 people that I've been very blessed to have been connected with in my life and a part of my wife is probably when you edit this takeout, probably the best consultant to me. That I've ever had. And was able to dissect when I'm challenged with a business issue or a financial issue or whatever, she's. Like, oh, well, what about this? It's like, how did you do that? Easily, so yeah, quite a number of blessings, certainly in my life.

And I think that message resonates with most of us. You know, having 50 people along your journey to help support you on the path you want to go on is pretty, pretty spectacular, and pretty special. And having a partner that supports you and understands you and gives you grace, you know, when you stub your toe, helps pick you back up, I think. That is what marriage is supposed to be around for. There are some of those key competencies to help each other out along the journey. All right, back to Kilimanjaro. So, we blocked it out. The guide came, helped us stand up, and got us back to camp.

So let me just say before he got us back to camp. He took my pack and he said just every footprint that you see in front of you, you step in that. And so that sort of caring and guidance. Just invaluable, not just to get back to camp, but to feel, you know, like we talked about at the outset, the feeling of that connected experience with a perspective that you just cannot imagine if you're reading about or listening or watching somebody talk about Mount Kilimanjaro. 

So back at camp, everybody was, you know. Worried that I was hurt. Whatever it was 30 minutes behind them or whatever it was. But then of course, happy when I showed up and all of that, we had a great dinner and I recovered and gave that guy his name was Boney. He's the head guide. His job is to keep everybody safe and on track and, you know, gave him a hug and just felt a connection with him that I will never break.

So now we wake up the next morning and we're only 15,000 feet only. Right. Better be careful how I put that. Somebody's going to, somebody's going. To call me out on that one. 

I learned my lesson too. That, yeah, 

yeah, we're 15,000 feet, which is pretty big. The deal, but we. Still got a little bit of a truck to go.

So, there are a couple more days though. The next day was incredible. Maybe the coolest part of the hike was not rock climbing and not the path hiking, but sort of a fusion of the two, where you're sort of using hands and knees and feet to climb some rocks that are not straight up steep, but they're not horizontal flat either. And so that section was probably a couple hours long, with fantastic views, and fantastic exhilaration. Again, the guys are telling you exactly where to put your feet. There's no safety net either, or you're certain we certainly could have fallen. So that was fantastic. 

And the next cool part was you finally get to what's called Summit Night. And Summit Night you were done hiking that day at about 3:00 in the afternoon before your summit. Take a nap, have dinner, then go to sleep. You try to go to sleep at about 6:00 or 7:00 PM because they wake you up between midnight and 2:00 AM, and when they woke us up, we could hear sleet hitting the tent. And of course, you know, we were at 16,000 feet at that time. 

So that's the summit sort of high camp as they call it on this particular trail. And I was sharing a tip with my son, and we looked at each other. Like I'm not going out there. You know, it's at that altitude. It's hard to breathe and it's not like you're gasping for air at all, but because you're not taking the amount of oxygen that your body is used to. Your body keeps waking you up, so the quality of sleep is not fantastic, but what's amazing? Are you making it right? So, you know that's the end of the story. As we made it. 

So, we got out of the tent, had some breakfast, dinner, whatever you might call it at 2:00 AM, and looked up so we could see the peak at that moment. And what was amazing is the only way you know, it's 2:00 AM. How can we see the peak? A line of headlamps? Of all of the other hikers, they were already on their way up. I think it was about a 3500, you know, trek last night, which was four. Well, jaunt. So last night was 4 miles, almost 4000 feet. 

So, about 1000 feet per mile, which if you're a hiker, you know that that's a pretty good, you know, upper mid-level gradient for a hike. When you add the altitude on it, it completely changes the game, so it took us about 8 hours to do those four miles, which is really slow, but that's what the guides told us to do on Kilimanjaro. They call it Polly, which basically means take it easy. The slower you go the more able you are to make the client. 

And I just want people to know that like all of these things and you pointed out that we're talking about this client, you can relate to life and business too, it's not about being lazy and going slow. It's about being deliberate and going at the speed that you are able so that you can make it a tremendously cool experience.

So, you reached the summit, and you're at the top of this mountain. And you're with these 8 compadres and guides, and probably a few other people who have made it up there. Well, how did you feel? What was that? What was that moment like? And by the way, you can check out Wayne's LinkedIn. He's got the picture of him as the header on LinkedIn and we'll get all that at the end but you can see the Photo of him at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. But What did that feel like to you?

It is the most amazing… I mean, it was a week of the most amazing experiences, right? Very difficult. The food is not terrific and that's not to knock the guys that are providing the food and carrying the water and it's you're just 16,000 feet in it. And the love of Africa, like, it's not going to be, you know, your neighborhood. Dinner, all those things. It's cold. It's, you know, you're in the same clothes for a week. 

But there are these moments of unbelievable exhilaration. And one of those moments was at the top. We just got to the top just. In time to get a glass of or a cup of hot tea. And turn around and look at the horizon. The sun was just coming up and as far as you could see it was just this red, orange, and yellow glow 360 degrees and you just don't get to experience that every day. 

So, it felt awesome. And then after that, there’s another 45 minutes or almost every mountain climber knows that there's always a false summit. You give this place you're like, oh, we think we've made it finally. Nope, there's a little more left, and Kilimanjaro is the same. It's about another 45 minutes to get to the actual top where that 40 you referenced was taken with the sign that's there. All of us just… Just be elated once you take the photo. And you hang out for about 10 minutes because they kind of want you out of there. There are other people that want to take their photo and you got to get out of the altitude. 

So, the idea is, the longer you stay at that hypoxic altitude, the more in danger you are. 

So, we gotta get down almost immediately after you turn around and start going down. You come down from this high and its fatigue and all that sets in. So, it's just a range of emotions that you feel on that summit night and day and some of them are uncomfortable and some of them are amazing and All of them are incredible.

Wow, Wayne, you mentioned at the beginning of our discussion that you have some breathing challenges and I'm listening to this story and I'm thinking, OK, look, lots of us have challenges in our life, right? Physical, emotional, family, financial, and cultural... Whatever it is… we all face some obstacles. Help me understand a little bit of your psyche here. As you know, you have challenges breathing yet you decided oh by the way. I'm going to go. Climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

I mean, I don't know. I don't. Know whether to fall in love with you or tell you you're absolutely crazy.

Well, now that you put it like that, maybe I shouldn't have done it. I probably should have sent you to the council. Me. No, you know, I've had these issues my entire life, so I don't know any difference. I am always about 50% the size of normal. That's why you can hear it when I inhale and things like that and why my voice is raspy. I've just never known any difference. I ran a marathon that same year. I run half marathons like you just … I think that the real lesson is that we adjust. And anything you put your mind to. As long as we don't avoid it, we adjust and do what we need to, live our lives as fully as we want to live them. And that's really… that's really what my motivation was. I'm also somebody that I'm not a thrill seeker per se that likes a bunch of jumps and, you know, climbs crazy things like Mount Everest and stuff like that's not me. I'd like to have some thrill and some uniqueness and some excitement in my life, and I don't know if I would have ever done this on my own without being asked. But man, when I was asked to whine or not, it was very intriguing.

Yeah, that's a beautiful piece of commentary and I'll and. I'll tell you why. There, there are so many underpinnings to what you just said about being mentally fit. And believing in yourself and overcoming obstacles, having some grit, right, all of those things play into your persona and how you view yourself from a self-esteem standpoint, and how you ultimately view the world. 

And if you take. That same approach that Wayne is talking about. No matter where you are, what you do, or what your challenges are, we, -- by the way, all have them. You know this guy included pointing the thumb at myself. We all have them.  -- If you can just have that confidence that you can do it and believe in it. Yourself. You'd be amazed. You know what you can accomplish both for yourself individually and for others as well. 

So, Wayne, thank you for sharing that piece of your life with us. So, I feel like a big part of you now tells me a little bit about how you're leveraging that in perhaps business and how you're leveraging that for others.

Well, I guess one way I'm leveraging is when I speak at conferences and workshops, and roundtables, people tend to Remember Me. So because they hear that voice and it's pretty unmistakable, I think the other way that I try to communicate with folks is look, if a guy like this with these airway restrictions can climb into that altitude and make it and be OK. Then we can do anything in business like you know, it's not that business is rocket science or mountain climbing unless you're in that business. It's just a matter of some of the things you mentioned. Do you get invited? Are you in the right mindset? What are you seeking? Things that will fulfill and improve you or your team and most importantly? Do you have someone? Do you acknowledge that you have people, and do you select? Others to help guide you in the experience, whether it's transformation or civil, or change or hiring whatever it is, we have people around us to help us conquer those seemingly impossible tasks, and that's what I try to get across to people.

And I feel like that since I've lived that. In a few different ways, there's a little bit of like, oh, I guess he's done that. So maybe there's credibility and then we get into it and certainly people find that as we go through. So that's how I try to embody that and know that, like throughout that experience, for me, nobody was hard driving, nobody was shaking their finger, there was no criticism. There were no expectations or just guidance if you want to do that, here's the guidance and we will support you with our lives and I try to, I love to. I don't have to try my business with our clients and bodies and I just love that relationship.

I love how you called out the 1980s and 90s leadership style of finger-pointing and pounding the table and you know, telling everybody where they need to be and what they need to do. And thank goodness that for most companies, we're beyond that. 

But second, public service announcement of the day, if you are working for a manager that pounds the table and points their finger either digitally through, you know, disruptive emails or in person, or worse yet in a group setting, time to have a candid conversation with that person because business and relationships are A2 way St., and typically what I find is that. There is no power position, no matter what the title of that person is, they are still people that are trying to figure it out, right? 

So have that candid conversation, public service announcement #2 is now complete. Wayne, you have been through a ton of stuff. You've conquered more than just climbing. Mount Kilimanjaro and I want to talk a little bit about your take on social responsibility on being a leader in your community because I do know that you. Do some work with the Boys and Girls Club and things of nature. What's your take on leaders in business having kind of another angle to what they do every day?

Great question. I think that for me. It has really helped out my experience and my experiential perspective on what we do to make money every day. We all need money. We live in American culture, et cetera, et cetera. Everyone knows that. What I see in our clients and the people that are in my sphere is a feeling of uncontrollable degradation over time. Meetings, emails, schedules that are packed, etc. We all know this. We all experience it to a certain extent, some more than others. Having a philanthropic initiative or involvement can help you be the lever to force some of that time management that's a little more purposeful and meaningful to you and gives you more of a feeling of purpose if your job is maybe a little bit less than fulfilling, 

So, it's an outlet that not only can help you prioritize. But can also help you not only build your fulfillment but your perspective on the world beyond business.

I absolutely love the way that you frame that up, finding fulfillment outside of your day job is so critically important. I tend to use the word purpose, finding your purpose, or being purpose driven. Those are kind of the words that I use, but that word fulfillment is really important. As well, we all go through those moments of ebbs and flows of satisfaction with our life or satisfaction with our business and to find that happiness that we're all seeking or that calling whatever you want to phrase it as, you got to have some other things in the mix, right? I mean, if you're making dinner Use some seasoning, you know, don't just give me the raw chicken. You have got to cook. You have got to put some seasoning on it. If you got to, you gotta make it right? So, I think that was beautifully said. 

Tell me about some of the things that you're doing locally in your community.

So, my big involvement currently is with an organization called Big Brothers Big Sisters, and what that organization is… If you're not familiar, there are children, often with a single parent, often with a single mom. Who doesn’t get to experience all the things in life that everybody else does? Could be material, it could be. Emotional it could be whatever.

And these -mostly moms, but sometimes dads - these parents of these kids, sign them up to the Big Brothers organization in hopes of having a mentor and a now for their son or daughter. And so I'm one of those folks with a great kid not far from here. And I've been a Big Brother of his for two years now. I think 2 years this month and it's fantastic. I get to take him for ice cream, and I get to teach him about how eating too much sugar is not good for you. Think about that dichotomy and just help read and help him deal with emotional things. It's twice a month.

It's a few hours on a Saturday Twice a Month it is. Helps me be purposeful like you said, and not just react to stimuli. All the time. Because we certainly get plenty of that as we go through our daily lives and for me, some of the philanthropic things that I do, I provide coaching as some executive directors for free at not-for-profit organizations that resonate with me. That's just another way that I give back. And again, it's just those purposeful things that mean a lot to me.

Awesome man, I love what you're doing in your community and quick correction. I think I did say Boys and Girls Club and you gently, gently steered me back to Big Brothers and Sisters, so hey, none of us are perfect. I did have it correct in my notes. I just didn't transfer it into the brain the right way. 

So, thank you for all that you do in your local community and the way that you give back. I think that's fantastic and what I'm going to take away from this episode. I'm going to take a lot, quite frankly. But what I'm going to take away is really the mindset of seeing the challenge, committing to the challenge, and training for the challenge. And then going and executing with a group of people that you trust and inspire you and really want to achieve the summit together, that's what I'm going to take away from this. 

So, thank you, Wayne, for being on the show. This was awesome, man. And so proud of the work that you're doing and love the fact that you took this challenge on for yourself.

Thank you. I appreciate this dialogue. You create thoughtful questions. You’re intriguing. And I'm. I'm inspired by what you do, too. So, it's been really great to chat with you.

Awesome, man. Thank you so much. So, Wayne, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to connect?

Well, you already mentioned I'm on LinkedIn. I try to post a lot of what I hope is helpful content to folks, so Wayne Barringer. And LinkedIn, our company website is Jaro.win,  JARO (as in Kilimanjaro) . win.

Well, beautiful man, we'll put that in the show notes. We'll put your link to your LinkedIn and all those types of things so that people can easily find you and get in contact. Thank you so much for joining the show. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Great pleasure is mine, Tom. Thank you very much.

And thank you for tuning in to the Talent Empowerment podcast. We hope you've discovered your true calling or found your dream career and are living your best life. Get ready to dive back into career and happiness in the next episode. We'll see you then.