Challenging Gender Norms in Construction

Interested in remodeling your house? Julie Laughton is the CEO, Architect, General Contractor, & Interior Designer of Julie Laughton Design Build. In this episode, Julie discusses all things home building and design, how it feels to be a woman in a male-dominated industry, the hardest part about being a business owner, and why she doesn’t like surprises.

🎙️Talking Points:

(1:28) How to avoid a nightmare home remodel

(2:57) Julie’s home building and remodeling process

(6:29) Getting clients to trust the process

(9:36) What inspired Julie to get into the home building, design and remodeling industry

(12:17) Having a unique business model

(16:29) Being a woman in the construction industry

(29:24) The hardest part about being a business owner

🔗Connect with Julie:

• Website: https://www.julielaughton.com/
• Julie Laughton Living Website: https://julielaughtonliving.com/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/julielaughtondesignbuild
• Instagram: https://instagram.com/julielaughtondb

🔗Connect with Tom:

• Instagram: https://instagram.com/therealtomfinn
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/therealtomfinn/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@therealtomfinn
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/therealtomfinn/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therealtomfinn
• Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/therealtomfinn
• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@therealtomfinn

Tom Finn:

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Talent Empowerment podcast. We're here to help you discover your purpose, step up your career game and live your happiest life possible. We unpack the tools and tactics of successful humans to guide you to find your own happiness and empower your career. I am your humble little host, Tom Finn. And on the show today, we have my friend Julie Lawton. Julie, welcome to the show.

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Julie:

Thank you very much, Tom. I'm so glad to be here.

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Tom Finn:

Well, we are thrilled you were able to carve out some time for us on your busy schedule. And I gotta tell you, if you don't know Julie, let me just take a moment, introduce you to her. She is the owner of Julie Lawton Design Build located in beautiful Laguna Beach, California. Julie's passion is to build custom dream homes with timeless designs. So for you real estate buffs out there, this is the episode for you. She has completed over a thousand remodels, and custom homes along the affluent coastal communities of Orange and LA County, California. That includes Laguna Beach and Newport Beach, as well as significant projects in Beverly Hills and Hollywood and Pasadena. Julie specializes in providing her clients a seamless one-stop shop design build service where all of their project needs are met in-house. All right, Julie. So for those of us lucky enough to be homeowners, How do we avoid a nightmare home remodel?

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Julie:

Well, first of all, it's sort of like life. You got to know what you want and you got to work with the right people. You got to have the right team because nobody does this stuff alone. So know what you want. Figure that out for real. Don't be guessing. And then you hire the right team and that whole process is huge. So that's where it starts.

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Tom Finn:

So talk to me about knowing what you want. So how does a homeowner know what they want when they call you? What does that look like?

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Julie:

Well, they usually say, hey, I want to do this or I want to do that, but they don't know what it looks like. So we go through this process where we interview. I interviewed them and I had them pull pictures, tell me what their favorite vacation spot was or what was their favorite, you know, where their favorite hotel. But they go through this whole process that basically boils down to them showing me visually what they like along with me listening to them because the listening is huge. But I get it done to photographs and that's their homework. photographs and then we look at the house and then we make it all work together.

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Tom Finn:

So we start with a little bit of a, Hey, Julie, I need my kitchen remodeled. I need my bathrooms remodeled. I need some new sliding doors, whatever it is. We'll get some pictures. We'll gather those. We'll put them together almost like a vision board and we'll start there, give you a call and say, okay, Julie, now this is kind of what I'm thinking. Can you bring in your expertise, your years of expertise and make this actually happen?

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Julie:

Yes, exactly. And then what it is, is I take all their ideas and then I look at their existing house. And if it's an existing house, it's a little more work because we have to do structural and rebuild it and re-fortify it. But if it's a new house, it's simple because it's just a blank canvas. So that's easy actually. But then remodels are tougher. So I have to combine what the house will take, what that and what that'll cost, and what their dream is. So it's a whole thing back and forth constantly. And since I'm both a designer and a contractor, I can tell them what it costs day one and save all that time of, oh, my God, my plans. I can't build this because the plans cost too much, you know, because no one looked at my plans before they drew them. So it's kind of nice because I can actually tell them everything in the first first hour, you know, if it's doable and what it costs.

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Tom Finn:

So Julie, that sounds really simple to you and I, right? You design and you build. It sounds so simple, but that's not really the way this works in the market for most others, right? How does it typically work when you're not working with Julie?

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Julie:

Okay, here's the deal. If you don't hire me, you gotta hire up to 11 people. So this is who you have to hire. If you don't hire me, you hire an architect or a really good draftsman. And then you hire an interior designer. Then you hire a custom kitchen designer. Then you hire a survey guy engineer. Then you hire a soil engineer. Then you hire a structural engineer. Then you hire a civil engineer. Then you hire the title 24 engineers. Then you have to go submit and have a plan runner and then you have then you finally get to the licensed general contractor and the landscape architect of the pool guy so I think we're up to 13 I didn't count

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Tom Finn:

I shoot a tally going as you were talking. I didn't know it was gonna go that deep. Okay, so-

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Julie:

It's- it's a lot.

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Tom Finn:

It's a lot. And I don't think it really matters if you're in California or Nebraska or Florida or New York or just outside Paris. Building homes and remodeling homes and construction takes a lot of different hands, would you agree?

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Julie:

Yes, I agree. And there's always somebody missing and somebody tries to skip a step. And here we go the nightmare.

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Tom Finn:

All right, so that is the way to avoid the nightmares, to understand the process and who needs to be involved as an average consumer, we should be able to put that together and then make sure we're working with the team that can bring the right expertise along the way to make sure it's beautiful.

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Julie:

Yes, because it's really important that you understand the process because that's what people skip. Then they rely on everybody else to tone the process, but you kind of need to know before you go because one person might take you down the road and have you skip a step. So you gotta watch it. But if your homeowner can just understand the process before they get into it, which is on my website and my seven simple steps, they would be able to have a better go at it because then they can trust more because then it'll all start making sense.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, so most people have a little bit of fear when they go through a home remodel.

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Julie:

Oh, a ton.

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Tom Finn:

There's some anxiety, right? We know it's usually a big cost for us regular folks. We're spending a lot of money that we've spent a lot of time saving on this. How do you help people get a little more calm through the process of home remodels?

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Julie:

Well, I Understand the anxiety and fear because that comes from not knowing the answer and not knowing the outcome And not knowing what to expect so I immediately Tell them what it's gonna cost Approximately tell them how long it's gonna take and then I go through that visual process on my end So after they show me all their pictures Then I draw 3d color renderings that look exactly like a photograph of what it's gonna look like when it's done before we build Anything so they can see what it looks like they know they're getting and they know what it cost and there's no surprises. You want to freak someone out, start giving them surprises. But I never, I don't like surprises and I know nobody else does. So I treat people like I want to be treated, you know?

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, look, that is a simple business tactic that all of us should employ. Julie, you set it off the cuff, but it bears repeating. Treat other people in business and in your personal life, like you want to be treated and don’t give them surprises.

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Julie:

Yes. Because it’s not even your talent. It's how you make them feel. I have to remind myself because I'm kind of Multitalented, you know and I do a lot of things but a lot of this stuff goes right over their head It's how I make them feel They need to feel comfortable and they need to trust and that's the hurt biggest hurdle is to getting them to trust you Because even if you tell them everything and you show them everything half the time at the end of the job They have no clue how you did it, but they're happy. They're still overwhelmed, but they're happy And that's my goal.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, that's important, right? Especially when we're doing work in our home. I mean, our home is our sanctuary. It's where we eat, it's where we sleep, it's our place of safety. And having somebody come in to redesign, remodel, all of that is a little fearful, but if you trust that person, I think what you're saying is you let them in and there's a better work product if the buyer trusts their partner in contracting.

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Julie:

Yes, it's a huge trust issue. And it's hard to break the trust, but I've seen people do it, and it's sad when it happens. Because in the old days, when I was younger, 50% of my business was going in and taking over a job after everyone was fired, or after the contractor was fired and salvaging the job and getting it back on track. So I have a lot of experience at that. So I could be called an expert, because I know what it takes for the plans. I know what it takes for the engineering. and the codes and the regulations and how to work legally. So I've done it so many times and saved so many people from going into worse situations that I can kind of pat myself on the back for just I'm I really I I enjoy doing it. I mean I've gone out of my way to help because I hate seeing the the mess the disaster or the potential disaster.

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Tom Finn:

So how did you get into this line of work, Julie? What inspired you to get into the construction and home building and remodeling business?

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Julie:

Well, I was a young girl at 10, 11 years old, ability to draw anything. And by 14, I'd mastered drafting and technical and mechanical engineering, architecture, drawing. I mean, I'm an artist turned draftsman. So by the time I was 18, I tested out a mechanical engineering in college. I took architecture, landscape architecture, and interior design. And that's not decorating. It's how people live and function in their home and their workspace. It's how does the shelter work for you? in the shelter, in the space, in the home. So it's a whole in-depth education. And then I worked in commercial for 10 years in New York City, well, seven years actually. And I loved it. But when I moved to California and started working in residential, that's where I found my passion is helping homeowners because there's such a wide range of things that can be done and people you have to hire that I couldn't believe that there was no one person helping the client. It was always a battle between the seven or 10 people. And so I've actually been doing the same thing for 40 years. I haven't changed my role on bit, but I became a licensed contractor to help my client and to help me sleep at night. So the rest is already there.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, and so how does having that license, that contractor license, help your client?

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Julie:

It gives me 100% control to not fuck up the job or have somebody fuck up the job because the problem is the contractor role is the one that builds it and there's so many laws and codes and regulations and how the money's paid that it can get backwards and the client can be stranded or overbilled. So having the 100% control on the construction is what helps the client be able to Have a restful evening and a rest, you know, just be stress-free because again I'm organized on the construction just like I am on the design. Everything's planned ahead. There's my jobs are no delays No change orders. No, you know, no messing around We're on your job. We stay on your job but the point is we don't have the same problems as other contractors because I'm the designer too so that helps but it really just added a security to the It's seamless.

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Tom Finn:

Why do you think more designers and contractors and architects don't come under one roof together? Because your model, your business model, makes a lot of sense. All I have to do is call Julie.

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Julie:

It makes a lot of sense. Yes, it's- I don't know why it won’t. I have no idea why more people aren’t doing it other than they're slightly lazy, they don't want to take on the responsibility, or they don't have the design talent. So maybe they're really strong in construction, and maybe they're really strong in architecture because you know, architects build buildings mostly. They don't do the design and how you function in space planning and all the custom, you know, so those two, the designer and the architect have to work together. So sometimes there's no crossover for the architect, and he has to rely on the interior designer and there's no design. to do that. So I haven't met anybody that's doing it like me. I mean there is no women doing it like me that I know of with the architecture and all the engineering and everything under one roof. So I think it should be a common thing where you go to school for construction management and then you learn how to read plans. You have to do both to make to be successful and really help people. So anyway that's my view.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I've always, I've always been a little confused as to why it's not easier to go into one company and they have all of the services to design and build and really help you finish off your home or build, build from scratch. It just seems like we've piecemealed all of these different services and experts, but we can't put them all under one roof, which blows my mind.

Julie:

Yeah, it makes no sense to me. Yeah, me too. And we really need to think about it. It's silly because you have design build contractors, but you got to work with the architect and the five engineers independently. So how is that design built? And they just tag along and help you, you know, count up the money you're going to pay them. And that's about it. You know, they don't really help you on the designer. You know, they might help on the advice on the plans, but nobody's doing. And it killed me because I guess they just don't have the two brain talent. You know, just I have the left brain and the right brain going strong. I'm going to go to bed.

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Tom Finn:

But even if, I mean, even if somebody didn't have both sides of the brain, they only have one, they could partner with someone-

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Julie:

Yes, they could.

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Tom Finn:

And they could work together and start a company together. And those two people, it might not be one person, that's okay, they could work together and figure out how to build this model. It doesn't matter if it's in Kansas City, Missouri or Dallas, Texas, or Minneapolis, Minnesota. What matters is the simplicity for the buyer. That's what I really like about.

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Julie:

Yes, that's what it was. And that's what it should be, because my parents were in Iowa. And when they did their remodel, of course, there was no designer or architect to help them. And so my dad was drawing the plans on a piece on a napkin, I think, or whatever, you know, a piece of paper. And it was like a deck and a room edition. But anyway, they call me like every week or sometimes every day with the questions with the contractor, because I'm like, really? But everybody, even if a simple. You got to have the team players because the contractor is not supposed to do the architecture and the design and the colors and blah blah blah. But I was it's always something missing because no one bothers to help and they just leave it on the poor homeowner to know all this stuff and they don't know. So yeah, it fascinates me. But I'm thinking by the end of the year after I do a thousand podcasts, I'll have some copy cats.

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Tom Finn:

You probably will, but what you should do is be grateful for that. Imitation is the highest form of flattery, my friend.

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Julie:

Yes, and I really think it should be happened more often. More people need help all over, because that's the whole nation. Think of all the homeowners, and they all remodeling, especially during COVID. I mean, they all went through it. Yep.

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Tom Finn:

So I want to go back to something you said a minute ago, and you breezed over it, but trust me, it did not fall on deaf ears. You said, I'm one of the only woman in the game, I'm paraphrasing. And I want to talk about that a little bit, because I think that's really thoughtful, and I love that you are in this sort of male-dominated world, and you're excelling. So tell me what that's like to be a female in this construction game.

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Julie:

Well, I'm the only woman on the slab and the only woman in the lumber yard and the only woman at the team meeting. The thing is, I don't mind it, but I'm very aware that I'm the only woman and I of course dress conservative and not try to freak out my guys because I'm like 5'8 and I'm a big girl and I got that big personality. You know, I get so well respected because men naturally, most of them respect women because I'm like their mom, you know, I'm like 61. So I get respect and differently than some 20 year old chick. But when I was 20, it was different because I was, oh my God, the whistles of this, the that. But I was always the girl, always. And I was always the girl in the architectural firm. So I had to do all the dirty work and go out and measure and all the stuff the guys didn't want to do. So I... It doesn't bother me, but I think that's why women don't do it because they're afraid they won't fit in or they'll get You know, they won't be allowed in so I'm not talking about I ever want to play professional football or basketball with men this is a construction and architecture and engineering and finally there's women in it so and and it's and it feels different when you're the only woman in the room, but it's all about what you know, that's what people don't get because you know, sort of like other things where it's your knowledge is what gets you accepted or you know, when they because the guys won't talk to you on a construction site if you don't know what you're talking about. And that's all construction is you got you got to know what you're talking about. So women can't get past the fact of the fear that maybe they won't be accepted. But it's not that men are really fair and better to work with in a lot of cases than women. And in I have a lot of fun because I know what I'm talking about, so that helps.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I think this is a really important point. Having specified knowledge in a particular industry and discipline, and Julie, what you're saying is you have specified knowledge when you walk on into the house, onto the lot, you have specified knowledge, and the other team members are looking at you saying, Julie has a lot of knowledge. So it really doesn't matter what your gender is. It matters that you have a brain and you can execute.

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Julie:

Yep, and that's what it boils down to. I have a cousin, she's a young race car driver in NASCAR. She's the only female. And she's that it's not that I'm better because I'm a girl, it's because I practice and I have a good coach, her dad. So it's because she has the skill, because she's practiced. And just like me, I have the skill because of 35 years of, almost 40 years of experience and tons of education and constant training. So it's fun.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, you said training there for a second. Was there somebody that trained and influenced you that had an impact on your life?

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Julie:

Well, when I worked in New York City with the five top developers, they kind of not took me under their wing, but I was the girl presenting the plans and the concepts to the developers one on one. And these are all 50 year old men. You know, my boss was older like them, but she had me as the front person. So I had to present to large developers one on one. and learn how to present and then talk about the contract and the money and the timing. And so I really got an education in New York City from working with top professionals in my business. And then when I kind of referred to training as in construction, we're constantly training the men about safety and about a thousand other things.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, that's the thing about life is that you've got to constantly be educating yourself, reeducating yourself, listening to the market. All of those things are so important. So when you, you think about your training and your education, what's, what's been maybe the hardest thing to learn?

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Julie:

You know, it's funny because I'm a whiz at the design and the construction took me a minute to learn the construction, like the structural in the beginning, just because I had to stand in it, you know, for a few years to really get it down. But I think the hardest thing to learn is seriously how to make people happy with and treat and figure out what each person's personality is, because I have to adjust myself to each client to make it work for them. because it's their house. So I have to constantly chameleon myself to fit their needs. So that's the hardest part is maintaining that smile and shifting gears for each personality because that's probably the toughest part. The rest of it's a cakewalk for me because I happen to be multi gifted, you know, as a designer and construction. I love it. I like to build things. I get it. So there was no difficulty there, but. Dealing with the client and the personalities is the hardest part, right? Because, you know, everybody gets so freaked out because remodels is worse than marriage or death on the Richter scale of stress. You know, that's up there, number three. First it's death, then it's getting married, and then it's remodeling.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, you're. That's right. Yeah, it's right up there with those things that we have fear around. What do you see as the biggest misuses of time and energy when you're working with all of these different subcontractors, because there's usually a lot of people involved. How do you see the misused time on a job?

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Julie:

Okay, well, we are so organized and I have good plans that are well detailed. So that's how the information processes flows is through emails and plans and specifications. So the biggest misuse of time is me having to repeat myself because no one wants to bother to read the plans or do their homework. So when I have to take extra time to repeat myself and it's already there, it bugs me. So I don't like repeating myself, but I'm kind of one of those. I have an A-type personality, so you got to listen the first time. Or I, you know, you got to swim in deep water with me. You know, I'm not going to baby you.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I think what you're saying is you have expectations of everybody doing their homework and bringing their A game to the job every day, because that's the way you’re coming to work every day.

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Julie:

Oh, yeah got to do my homework, and I'm prepared every day. So the biggest waste of time is, you know, having someone that doesn't want to be a team player or having a client that refuses to cooperate or participate when needed. And then we got to go back and kind of redo stuff or they'd make a bunch of change orders. So that I hate wasting time and money. I hate it. But you know, there are certain people that need special attention.

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Tom Finn:

I love the way you said that there's certain people that need special attention. And we see that in all of our lives. It doesn't matter what line of work we're in where we see people that need, as you said special attention, which typically means. Yeah. Yeah. It typically means that they've just got some, maybe some quirks in their personality, or they have a very specific need that changes from time to time.

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Julie:

Oh, yeah, they got this. I have one right now and I'm like, hmm, anyway. How much more time could I spend?

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Tom Finn:

That's what I tend to see in business as well. It happened. So Julie, let me ask you that. If you weren't doing what you're doing today, what would be your dream job?

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Julie:

Well, it's so funny because I'm an artist I was born this way so I can't imagine Doing anything else but you know, I was a I had two scholarships for college for golf Which I didn't take and I loved cars and designing like the cut if I could would design a car or something You know, so I for me, I don't know because it would all be based on design. So Everything from architecture to any kind of design. I would be somewhere in the design arena Still because I can't imagine what the born talent I have what else I would do Because I do play therapist and life coach to my clients as well But it's not fulfilling as designing and building and creating something. So, you know Something creative is what I would be doing like 60s muscle cars. So there's a few cars out there, but not enough with the new models.

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Tom Finn:

I love that. I can't wait to see you design your first car. And now I'm now I'm fired up about it. Well-

Julie:

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

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Tom Finn:

We'll be waiting for Julie's new model that she can go to Detroit and start showing those guys how to design really design cars. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Julie:

In my next lifetime.

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Tom Finn:

So what would you, Julie, what would you tell a young up and comer who is trying to get into this field? And let's talk to the women out there because I would love to see. more female leadership in this space, in real estate, in construction, in design, in architecture. I would just love to see this flooded with that expertise. What would you tell the next generation? How would you get them into his business?

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Julie:

There’s a lot of trade schools out there to learn the trade if you really wanted to get in the construction Trades and don't be afraid if you're young and you want to get physical to be the plumber the electrician hang drywall Framing that's seriously a nice option. You can make some good consistent money But what's really better is construction management and you go in it could take a construction management class and get a job with a really large construction company or one small help because contractors aren't good at paperwork, let alone invoicing, let alone scheduling because they don't have the time because if the guy is actually still swinging the hammer and doing the work and showing up in the field, he doesn't have the time and he's got to have somebody. So, and if it's not his wife, then it's got to be somebody. So construction management, project management is where I send all women to start and you could work, you know, in residential with homeowners and just help them manage their projects, you know. with a really large construction company exposes you to all the project from conception to completion because then you have to work with the architects, the engineers, and the inspectors in the city, and you get to see the whole enchilada when you're in when you're working in construction because you're dealing with everybody who's providing you the plans and the building inspections. So that's my advice. You know, get out there and do it. Even if you just show up and do something dumb and you know you're an assistant, just get out there and do it in person.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I think what you're saying is just get started. Don't wait and try to have all the answers. Just get started.

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Julie:

You don’t have to know anything. If you show up and you're willing and able and you show up on time, you're 90% there. And then because with all my people, I have to train them because no one else does it like me because of the fact I've designed, built. So I have to train them anyway. So I tell them, don't worry about it. Whatever you learn, whatever. You're going to do it this way anyway. So they spend the first three months getting trained how we do it and our process.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, that was super helpful. And I think those that are getting ready to go into their careers or early stage in their careers that could make a career shift into this business, you laid out the game plan, just get started. If you want to be physical, you can get into the construction trades. You can do a little schooling if you want to, or go get into construction management and start there and learn all the parts of the business so that you can build a career for yourself. What's the hardest part about being a business owner for you, Julie?

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Julie:

The hardest part is being alone. So when I started there was no one to talk to or no one to cry on. So. My mother who's a business woman and kind of broke the glass ceiling because she's in finance and she worked for Ameriprise American Express when she was one of three women and there was like 500 men. So I would always talk to her. So my point is I had a mentor by talking to her who was another business woman and how to deal with the situation and the shit I was getting at work and the disrespectful men in the office including bosses back when I was younger. You gotta find someone to talk to so you know it's you're on the right track and you're okay because you get nervous and you get scared and then you and then you and then I remember I never wanted to spend a dime on advertising but I had to to survive so you got to solve people like how much do I spend how to you know what should I do to build my business because you got a scale slowly but fast enough to survive so all you need a mentor and you need to talk to more people and get it atmosphere with people that can help you answer questions and give you advice. Because I still have people calling me that start their business and ask me how to advertise because they're nervous about how much to spend and where should I advertise. To this day I get a call because I've become a master at it. And it's paid off. But yeah, just get yourself good mentors, good people to give you good advice.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, well, well said. Uh, for those that listen to the show regularly, I am a huge fan of coaching and mentoring for everybody. Everybody should have somebody they can talk to. You don't have to walk this life alone and you can speed up life lessons from somebody else. You don't have to make the same mistakes that Julie made. She can tell you how to avoid them.

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Julie:

Thanks.

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Tom Finn:

And so many other people out there, right?

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Julie:

Yeah, again, you know, I waited too long to do a couple of things and delegate too. So, you know, and I should have charged more earlier on so I could have more people, you know, don't be too nice about, you know, don't do too many favors.

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Tom Finn:

That's right. Well, Julie, I love your story. I love that you've built a design and build company yourself. I love that you're a female in this business and you're driving forward and you're, you know, you're kicking butt, taking names. I love it. So, so thank you. Thank you for being, um, you know, a mentor for us and for all the young women that want to get into this space, uh, you know, from, from the bottom of my heart to you, thank you so much for what you do.

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Julie:

Thank you. Tom, and I really enjoyed talking with you, and I hope that if anybody has questions, you can always reach out to me because life's a constant, you know, it's a constant process. So it never stops, so just know that.

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Tom Finn:

Well, with that in mind, Julie, where can somebody reach out and find you if they want to get a hold?

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Julie:

The easiest way is just to go to my website at JulieLaughton.com and that'll tell you everything. And I also have another website, JulieLaughtonLiving, which will have this podcast on it, but my main website's the best place to go.

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Tom Finn:

All right, we'll put that in the show notes for everybody so that you can connect with Julie and learn more about how to remodel, how to design your own house, how to design and build, how to bring all of those 13 people together and make magic happen for yourself. Julie, thank you so much for being on the show.

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Julie:

Thank you very much, Tom. It's a pleasure.

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Tom Finn:

And thank you for tuning into the Talent Empowerment podcast. We hope you've discovered your true calling, found your dream career, or at least are on your way. Get ready to dive back into all things career and happiness on the next episode. We'll see you then.